Curse

Cjlr · May 07, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

I just had an idea! And since I was already browsing the Sanitarium, I thought I might as well share it with you.

There I was, reading skill descriptions, and it hit me. All of them scale linearly. Every last one. And that's good, on the whole, because it really simplifies the whole attribute system.

But what if some of the skills scaled quadratically? Oh, the possibilities! You could have skills that grew increasingly powerful each time you upgraded them. You could have skills that would plateau for the first few levels of the attribute line. By no means would I want all skills like this. That would be akward at best and imbecilic at worst. But some new ones... It would add a new dimension to many skills and builds. Weighing whether to add a Superior rune versus a Major or Minor would be more of a consideration. And there's more, I'm sure, that I haven't thought of.

So, is it a game-changing revolution or piss-poor nonsensity? Your thoughts, comments, and observations, if you please...

Cjlr · May 08, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Come on here, guys. 14 of you, and no opinions? In two hours? That's like, a new record. Say something! I'm reduced to spamming now! It's not pretty!

Terra Xin · May 08, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I didn't want to say anything because I have no idea what you mean by quadratic scaling... and half an idea of what you mean by liner scaling

Expand... if you will.

Cjlr · May 08, 2006, 12:16 AM // 00:16

You know... Maths... And such...

Most skills are a linear equation (y = mx + b, or ax + by + c = 0), meaning they have a base damage (b) and the attribute level (x) is added/subtracted to that at some fraction of itself (m). In other words, they increase at a constant rate. If you graphed the damage of a given skill, it would make a straight line going upwards. Still with me?

A quadratic involves second degree terms, and is usually expressed as (y = ax^2 + bx + c). But you can ignore that. The important thing is, if you graph it, it makes a curve.

Sol_Vie · May 08, 2006, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Linear expanding means that everytime you level the attribute, the green numbers increase by the same amount every level.

Quadratic means that at every attr level increase, the numbers would double or otherwise. Something like this for a potential skill that adds damage:
level 0: +2
Level 1: +4
level 2: +8
And so on...

I don't like the idea just because numbers would get too high. Even if they had plateaus, it just wouldn't work as well. Linear works just fine for most games, as it does for GW.

shardfenix · May 08, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

This is what he means.
Generic damage spell progression (from level 1-12)
5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55, 60

Quadratic (also called exponential) progression from level 1-12
1, 1, 2, 4, 7, 11, 16, 22, 29, 37, 46, 56

So that every point in that attribute actually is worth it, rather than spenging 20 points worth for only +5 damage, you get +10 damage, whereas at lower levels, it is not worth it for splashing purposes.

Terra Xin · May 08, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

oh... see you just had to say exponential, lol i get it now

I suppose this could work with some skills, working out which ones they are is like coming up with new skills... too hard for me, leave it to you guys. Linear equations = nooby easy^^

Cjlr · May 08, 2006, 08:10 PM // 20:10

And all I had to say was exponential, to explain it? Dang.

But, I'm not just talking straight y = x^2 + c here, which is what one of you mentioned. Oh, and everything rounds in-game, right? Just checking... I know the display is always rounded to the nearest whole, so I'm assuming the underlying mechanics are as well. It kinda doesn't work out prettily if the numbers aren't internally rounded. That in mind, consider:

y = -1/50(x-20)^2 + 9; at attribute level zero it gives a value of 1, and peaks at 9 at attribute level twenty. This means it becomes more effective on a per attribute level basis as you approach level ten, but past that each attribute level will decrease in effectiveness.
Or
y = 0.005 nCr (x,5); technically not a quadratic, but still very interesting. Little to no payoff earlier on (it takes level 10 just to achieve an increase > 1), but at level 12 it has reached 4, and at level 15 it is at 15.

Those are horribly unbalanced numbers but a little work and it could be feasible. What I chose gives you an idea of what is possible, I hope. I wish someone else would throw in their opinions, though. I feel like I'm talking to myself here.

ComMan · May 08, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

See, here's the deal, is that you're wrong. Make a Ranger, put Tiger's Fury or Read the Wind on your bar, and see how fast they improve relative to their attributes. The higher you get, the more it takes to make a difference in the skill. Likewise, compare Executioner's Strike at 15 and 16 to the same skill at 1 and 2. Not every skill is linear.

Also, simplicity is a virtue.

Mandy Memory · May 08, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

This would lead to everyone running the same attributes. (all extremely high)

Cjlr · May 08, 2006, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ComMan

See, here's the deal, is that you're wrong.

What did I do to deserve that? If there's a good reason, I must know.

Quote:

Make a Ranger, put Tiger's Fury or Read the Wind on your bar, and see how fast they improve relative to their attributes. The higher you get, the more it takes to make a difference in the skill.

Tiger's Fury is linear. Because of the internal rounding, the game adds +1 second duration after 2 levels, then after 3, then after 2, then after 3...
Read the Wind is the same. Well, not the exact some, but same idea. The game adds a fractional increase, and rounds the result. I'm a lazy man, and I don't want to work out the actual equations. But as for a simple example, the equation (y=1/3x + 1), a "typical" skill progression, take a look see here:

Actual numbers: 1, 1 1/3, 1 2/3, 2, 2 1/3, 2 2/3, 3, etc...
In-game numbers: 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, etc...

Quote:

Likewise, compare Executioner's Strike at 15 and 16 to the same skill at 1 and 2.

This, is just not true... Δ Axe 15-Axe 16 is 2. Δ Axe 1-Axe 2 is 2. As is the Δ between any two levels.

And I know, I know, I didn't substantiate my assumption that they all were linear. I probably shouldn't have claimed they were. Nonetheless I have yet to find one that isn't. If you can prove to me there is one, I'll shut up promptly.

And one more thing... Did I ever say I wanted all skills like that? NO! So stop acting like it!

Gmr Leon · May 08, 2006, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Cjlr are you a math teacher or something? I've never seen a post with this much math put into it...

This idea does sound pretty good if you ask me. I understand it for the most part and I am in no way good at math.

Cjlr · May 08, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Cjlr are you a math teacher or something? I've never seen a post with this much math put into it...

Oh my, no. Good to hear though. You know that warm feeling you get when someone compliments you? Yeah, that's the one.

It's all simple stuff, though. Grade 10 Curriculum here in Ontario (I checked; for those interested you can navigate to it via www.gov.on.ca), although I have no idea how that matches up to the education system in other locales... If it's been a while since high school

, resort to Wikipedia. It's all in there too

.